No one has talked about this and I think it is important and want peoples input on this. OK imagine its happened….. Everyone is out worrying about buying presents and no one except a small minority is prepared. The govt is going to be crippled to offer any help on a scale that large. People are going to freak out, its going to be hit the panic button run around in a circle I don’t know. My main concern at that point is the ensuing violence. Take a look at the Katrina aftermath. Imagine that on a national scale with no one to protect you. OK utilities go off say a week into it, middle of winter, cold but not so you can’t travel on foot. You have supplies and are warm and fed and not freaking out. Not so for most of the survivors. This is the real world and everyone that should not have a gun really does have one. People of “that mentality” will figure its easier to take it from you than to get it myself. Hell you might be the only one with anything to take, whatever. The point im trying to get at is do you think its going to come down to having to literally fight to the death for what you have, if for no other reason that to keep away possibly infected people. My personal opinion is that it will and I am ready for that if it comes to that. How far do you go to protect your dwelling/gear?

Run for the hills..with as much gear as you can carry

Well i live on the third floor of an apartment building. So unless someone can scale the walls or bust down my front door then for the most part i am ok. Even though i’m one of those tree hugging tofu eating liberals i’m not opposed to guns so i guess that is an option if god forbid it should come down to it. I think where there will be some serious paranoia about infection you will mostly see people trying to stay AWAY from each other rather then to break into homes and get closer. But you never know what some people will do. If people need to get water or food they are going to take their chances with catching the virus.

If the utils go out for me it is another big issue because i still haven’t found a safe and affordable solution to my not having heat if the power goes out. Which might lead to us having to leave the apartment and seek shelter else where if possible. If that happens i better hope i have some type of a weapon for protection and lots of masks, oh and a full tank of gas!

MMMM… This is a distasteful subject.

Everyone will have to make their own decisions based on their surroundings would be my guess. If you live in a urban setting you will be in the most danger obviously. And may well need to be armed. But unless you band up with neighbors you most likely will have little success in defending your property and family alone.

If someone nosing around figures you are well stocked and prepared they may attempt to help themselves. On your first encounter with them you probably could ward them off with a show of arms. But they will come back with armed friends in whatever numbers are necessary to acquire your supplies. Most likely they will have no qualms in using deadly force. But if you have formed an alliance with neighbors your chances of successfully defending your family and supplies will go up substantially.

We live in a rural-suburban neighborhood of 3–15acre homesites and feel that by the time people are thinking of scavenging for supplies this far out, the chances they have enough fuel to get here will be small. Our neighborhood is also quite close knit and although my husband and I have never allowed weapons in the house, the rest of the neighborhood appears well armed. We are still mulling around the idea of a gun but we’ve put it off so far.

The best thing to do is preventitive. Keep your supplies out of site. We don’t store anything in the garage in plain site of delivery people etc. who might out of curiosity notice all the filled shelves. Only to remember later in the pandemic where he saw them and to come looking.

But as I say this it sounds very self surving, but the fact is I hope to be prepped enough to help out anyone in need to some degree but still beable to provide for the family. I would rather we endured some hardship and help others than to sit fat and happy at home while others suffer horribly.

Just remember that the actual severity of H2H H5N1 is not yet known. This discussion suggests a substantial death rate and social displacement. While that is certainly one path that things could go, there is also the possibility that things would be only as severe, or a bit moreso, than a bad seasonal flu epidemic.

On the other end of the spectrum is something with the impact of the Black death. You have to choose the level you anticipate seeing, at the worst, and prepare accordingly.

My family’s safety comes first. We live in a small town and I would not anticipate much violence here. I’m not about to start shooting my hungry neighbors. If society falls apart, nobody is safe anywhere. We need to support our law enforcement and work together as a neighborhood and community to keep crime out of our town.

The only saving grace about a pandemic (as opposed to hurricane, for example) is that anyone who wants to burgle you have to risk catching the virus from those they attack.

Maybe it’s prudent to act like you are sick?!

I find it interesting to see that everyone thinks the crime and violence I speak of is going to come from outside their towns and not from within. Wow everyone must either live way out in the boonies or really small towns. I am 10 miles outside Philadelphia; my concern is that as stuff runs out, the city will empty out with everyone trying to get away from it. Then its hello mobs of frightened people with mob mentality. I am planning for the worst case and anything less ill just be over prepared if there is such a thing. As far as not having a gun in the house…I wont go on and on, let me just say that firearms are the great equalizer (yeah I know only to a certain extent) But when “they” have them and you don’t its not going to be very equal. It’s just a tool; it won’t kill someone until you pull the trigger. I would like to touch on the subject of feeding the hungry neighbors. To what extent will you do that? One neighbor, all of them, who ever comes knocking? What if you need the supplies down the road? I don’t know my mentality in a worst-case scenario is self-preservation only, like I said before its not like there was no warning.

Let me say something about utilities.

Our electric utility plant is many miles outside town on the other side of Cook Inlet nestled close to a volcano that erupts from time to time. As such, it’s inaccessible except by air and water, mostly air.

In the event of a pandemic, this plant might activate an internal quarantine plan whereby only those inside stayed inside to operate the plant until the wave passed. I think that could be feasible and prudent, thus, our city and environs would continue to have electric service.

This example might apply to varying degrees elsewhere around the country and beyond. Continued utility service would be crucial with so many people hunkering down at home. I imagine plant managers planning to protect their employees and perimeters like field commanders in Vietnam or Iraq. Something can be done, depending on local circumstance. Something should be done, especially commitments made before the fact, as a matter of common sense and decency.

Liberate your local Costco!

Sure, there may be some pockets of violence in a pandemic, but you have to remember that nothing about Katrina was contagious and much of the Katrina issue was the result of thousands of people crammed in a small space able to feed each others’ fears and egg each other on to do things they otherwise would not…the idea of becoming infected and dying a horrible death will keep some people from acting that way. Also, if your preps are not out for the world to see, then those people who are willing to risk infection will hit Walmart and grocery stores before they come after you unless they have reason to think you may have more readily available supplies than walmart.

While in every society there is always a “get what you can no matter what” element, those are also the people whose actions are most likely to put them at risk of infection, so odds are many of them will be among the first flu dead.

I think the “roving bands of looters” some folks anticipate will either kill each other off or die of the flu fairly quickly. If they didn’t do the research and prep for themselves, odds are they don’t know or care what supplies they need to survive the flu anyway. A lot of what was being looted during Katrina were TV sets, booze, and video games. If they know enough to look for Tamiflu or masks they will go where they think it can be found - drugstores, hospitals, Dr.s offices, not individual homes.

Door to door looting is a high risk low gain activity - not worth the time. Looters would be out to get enough for themselves and maybe some extra to sell at a high price to others. They know they are not gonna find that at some person’s house. Sure, you may be well stocked, but unless you hung out a sign that says so, the looters don’t know that.

Once all the stores are wiped out, some may start door to door, but will find little and then the gangs will turn on each other. Gangs turn on each other when the members don’t all get what they want. If they don’t find enough for all of them, they will kill each other over it.

If things get so bad that there are roving gangs, then there is not likely to be gasoline available, so they will be limited to areas they can reach easily by foot which means people are probably looting in their own neighborhoods.

If you take pains to look as needy as everyone else in your area, then there is no reason for someone to single you out as a source of supplies.

I think your bigger concern may be your next door neighbors who may have noticed you bringing large piles of food and gear into the house…or the family members who while they are poking fun at you prepping now may feel entitled to what you have later.

One thing that strikes me about this thread is that much of this presumed talk of pandemic violence stems from a presumed failure of the nation to confront risk and prepare before the fact.

Yes, it might get ugly if most people are unprepared and feel they’ve been sold out. That sentiment sparked much of the violence in New Orleans. If we know we’re going to hit an iceberg, if we have enough life boats and if we know the drill, most of us are going do the drill.

I don’t mean this in any sense as reassurance. It’s more a warning to decision makers that they should get off the dime.

Max, we live right in W. Philly, we are the ones you fear. Maybe if folks in the suburbs could find a way to help the inner city neighborhoods organize and prepare themselves, your places would be safer. But I have to agree with Pirate Girl that people on the bottom rung of the economic ladder usually hurt each other and themselves. Even on our block, when we have a block party or holiday dinner the question comes up, “what if people who live on the next block want to come too”. It doesn’t happen often, and when it does they blend in and there’s enough to go around. No problem like that yet. Has a lot to do with who’s in charge of distribution. If FEMA’s purpose was really to help people they would have no problem doing that. I’ve read things implying that FEMA has their own scary agenda.

All that said, I’m still glad we have a rotweiler dog, and wonder how we would be able to keep her fed.

It appears that there is a lot of serious thinking going on here. It all comes down to the same thing we have been doing about the rest of our preparation. Prepare for bad times and hope they do not come. I listened to a couple who told me that they would rather die at the hands of others than defend themselves with a gun. My wife and I have been through difficult times decades ago. We learned how important survival becomes when we are each faced with death. This couple does not realize that they would change their minds after it was too late. There are damn few of us that are spiritually advanced enough to accept torture and death over self defence. I am not saying that there are not any, I just don’t know any.

On that note, please remember that owning a firearm is not much help if you are not trained to use it well.

I have read most if not all of the posting on here and other survival sites and you will find several on power plants from people who work there. Time and again it was said that there has been zero talk, let alone prep for a pandemic. OK so you somehow force the workers to stay, what do they eat, how do they shower, what if one of them got it somehow and infected the rest of the plant? I just dont see it happening. I really am imagining everything grinding to a halt a week or two into it. As far as the govt failing….yes; but right now I see it more like this. Remember in the old 80′s movies when all the generals are at norad and the russians launch the missiles. Some dude always goes do we warn the public? Then some other guy usually the pres goes what for it will only panic them. We are in that situation now. They know its coming but its already too late. If you are not already prepared for 3 months or longer its almost too late. Its certainly too late for the entire country to prepare like that. Most people dont have enough disspossable income to even prepare like that. As far as the fear of infection goes I think the general public is just too plain stupid to comprehend what would be happening. They will come out and mingle/riot anyway. Maybe it will be a cleansing of the shallow end of the gene pool?

http://www.ajclogistics.net/news/?nid=2129

• During a normal flu season, 30,000 Americans die. University of Minnesota public health expert Michael Osterholm says the avian flu pandemic could be much worse - sickening or killing millions of Americans and millions more worldwide. “We can predict now 12 to 18 months of stress of watching loved ones die, of wondering if you are going to have food on the table the next day,” he says. “Those are all things that are going to mean that we are going to have to plan — unlike any other crisis that we have had in literally the last 80-some years in this country.”

Dr. Osterholm is currently associate director of the Department of Homeland Security’s National Center for Food Protection and Defense, director of the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy, and a member of the Institute of Medicine of the National Academy of Sciences.

Dr. Kumnuan Ungchusak, Director of Thailand’s Bureau of Epidemiology;

• “It’s apparent to us insiders that [the virus] has already moved from phase 3 to phase 4 [in terms of the World Health Organisation’s pandemic alert levels],” said Dr Kamnuan Ungchusak whose work was published in the New England Journal of Medicine in January. Reports of the infection spreading among humans in four countries including Cambodia, Thailand, Indonesia and Vietnam have suggested to scientists that the virus has become more pathogenic than ever, the doctor said.

The Nation, Bangkok, 5 September 2005

http://www.rjgeib.com/thoughts/desolation/josephus.html

• “Throughout the city people were dying of hunger in large numbers, and enduring unspeakable sufferings. In every house the merest hint of food sparked violence, and close relatives fell to blows, snatching from one another the pitiful supports of life. No respect was paid even to the dying; the ruffians [anti-Roman zealots] searched them, in case they were concealing food somewhere in their clothes, or just pretending to be near death. Gaping with hunger, like mad dogs, lawless gangs went staggering and reeling through the streets, battering upon the doors like drunkards, and so bewildered that they broke into the same house two or three times in an hour. Need drove the starving to gnaw at anything. Refuse which even animals would reject was collected and turned into food.”

And it gets worse the further on one reads it…

Argentina had an economic collapse back in 2001 that lasted a couple of years. While the info in the following link is not directly equivalent to what might happen in the US over a 12–18 month timespan, it provides more perspective of low level civil disorder in the context of modern times; http://www.peakoil.com/fortopic14183.html

Yep that story on argentina is posted on several survival forums and I took heed of his advice several months ago when this was just starting to surface in regular world news. Thats what I am expecting and fearing. It apears I am not the only one that thinks this way. Im a weird way that kinda calms me down. At least I know I wont be the only one holed up with rifle in hand defending the family and what supplies I have. If enough people are doing this maybe it will quickly change the minds of looters.

Stalingrad endured a seige in the 20th century, you don’t want to know what happened. In St. Petersburg you had people selling small personal belongings to get by in recent years. When I traveled there or anyplace with financial needs. I took a full suitcase with a few bags, when I left I put the clothes(suits, jackets, sweaters) into the closed bag next to the trash. If the chambermaids so chose they could use what I left(all gently used good clothes) for barter or their own use if they were my size.I hope this country never gets into that state.

Stalingrad endured a seige in the 20th century, you don’t want to know what happened. In St. Petersburg you had people selling small personal belongings to get by in recent years. When I traveled there or anyplace with financial needs. I took a full suitcase with a few bags, when I left I put the clothes(suits, jackets, sweaters) into the closed bag next to the trash. If the chambermaids so chose they could use what I left(all gently used good clothes) for barter or their own use if they were my size.I hope this country never gets into that state.

Thank You Skye, that last URL is very very valuable. When I get home I will print it all out. Words from someone who has already gone through what amounts to a bird flu pandemic are worth their weight in gold.

In the book I am reading “The great influenza - J. Barry” at that time, nobody want to talk with others. No pedestrians, no traffic on the streets, (even in New York) stores closed, schools, etc…No public assembly. So, this will probably happen again if H5N1 human-to-human appear.

After I read Skye post (14:21) maybe we will see violence! I am not so sure now!

As I’ve been reading about kim-chi making, (from the recipes link) I think I can picture women in Korea hiding their fermented vegetables under ground, not just to keep them cool, but to keep them out of sight of roaming soldiers and hungry kids. Not flashing what you have is always a good idea where I live. My husband drove a rusted old car for years and no one tried to steal it. Less flash, more stash. (:

“shallow end of the gene pool”??? Come on now.

Lorelle— I figure in times of great forcoming change such as this why suger coat things.

So many excellent points raised on this thread. And as is so often the case, such points provoke a lot of thought.

tj says: “We need to support our law enforcement and work together as a neighborhood and community to keep crime out of our town.”

This makes me think of so many things. We may all live in what we consider nice, law-abiding neighborhoods. No riff-raff. Whatever. But desperate times make people do desperate things. Look what happened after Katrina. Those “looters” weren’t criminals. They were frightened, desperate people. Any number of us would have been driven to engage in the exact same “criminal” behaviors we saw on TV. If I had to break into the local 7–11 to provide food for my family I would do it in an instant, and I wouldn’t think twice.

Annoyed Max says, “my concern is that as stuff runs out, the city will empty out with everyone trying to get away from it.”

But even if you live in the boonies, chances are great that many (maybe many boonie-ites would be an oxymoron, so okay, just a few) of your fellow boonie-ites are not so well prepared. Then they become the criminals. Right? Potentially violent people won’t necessarily come from “there” wherever “there” is. They may come from “here.” They may be your neighbors. They may be the family from the next homestead over (I was going to say farm, but I would think that farmers are likely to have plenty of food).

Me, I live in a somewhat isolated (an hour’s drive from “the bottom of the hill”) touristy town in the mountains of southern California. Only about a third of the homes are occupied by full-time residents. The rest are mostly second homes, vacation cabins (some of them more mansion-like in size). I would expect that, in the event of a pandemic, those second-home owners will be fleeing the city and coming up here. That will put enormous pressure on this town. One small hospital. Twenty-eight beds (and most of them already occupied). The possible scenarios are endless. There are only 3 roads into this town. We had the threat of fire two or three years ago and everyone had to evacuate. Took hours and hours to get down a road that normally only takes one.

And that brings up another potential scenario. We keep our gas tanks full. We may even have extra full gas cans around. But what makes us think we are going to be able to get anywhere? We want our children near. If they are grown and gone, they may not be able to get to us. My husband’s family have land in Arkansas, which I figure in event of pandemic would be superior to where we are now. Our growing season is short. They can live “off the land.” Forget trying to get there though. That’s almost 2000 miles away.

Annoyed Max also says his “mentality in a worst-case scenario is self-preservation only.” I think I would not think that way, but if things get to, what, Eccles’ stage 5, God, who knows? Maybe I’d feel that way too. I hope not. I don’t think I could live with myself just sitting here fat and happy with my family while others are dying for lack of basic necessities. I know it would be a pitifully small gesture, but I am going to prepare a few extra emergency boxes that I could drop off in front of my most desperate neighbors’ houses at night if need be. A couple gallons of water. A few cans of food. Some candles and matches. Just a few things to maybe help someone over a hump. It would have to be a small hump, but maybe such help could make the difference between life and death. Maybe a little light and nourishment would be enough to help a family get through an acute-illness event, or maybe allow them to use their brains to think as creatively as possible.

Because when it comes right down to it, creative thinking is what we will need.

And thinking only of ourselves? I have to say I think that is no way to live. Maybe we could sustain our physical bodies, but life is so much more than just that.

Am I going to get a gun? Yes. But I think money spent on extra ammo would be far better spent on extra food.

Annoyed,

This isn’t true so far as we know.

“We are in that situation now. They know its coming but its already too late. If you are not already prepared for 3 months or longer it’s almost too late.

If it’s that late, we don’t know it for sure. And it may not be.

“It’s certainly too late for the entire country to prepare like that. Most people don’t have enough disposable income to even prepare like that. As far as the fear of infection goes I think the general public is just too plain stupid to comprehend what would be happening.”

I don’t know what “like that” means exactly, but that’s not the point. The difference(s) between being ready and not having a clue are huge, life and death to many individules, probably millions worldwide. That so many people could know what might be in store and do so little to announce it is shocking if not altogether surprising. One of the tacit reasons some of us post to this forum is to bitchslap decision-makers to get off their asses and activate Phase 4 public communication and engagement. If they fail to do that as pandemic conditions develop, anarchy would be commonplace. But it doesn’t have to be that way.

Dubina—I agree it doesn’t have to be that way but I do not see it changing any time soon. When I said how long it would take to prepare I mean I am only 25 I still live paycheck to paycheck only been working 2 years. It has taken me months to first determine what equipment I would need, find said equipment, save the money up, find time to buy the equipment, etc. I think it’s difficult from my own experience to gear up to the level I think you have to be at. On top of that I was not at step one I have had a survivalist mentality since post 9–11 and have had a long lost of supplies that only in the last few months has been largely checked off. I have spent every spare penny preparing for this. Can always eat the food later and go have fun at the range with my spare ammo. It could already be too late; all it takes is the right number of mutations to happen and someone to get on a plane. The pandemic could be well underway and no one knows it yet. Hopefully this would not happen with all the “monitoring” going on. But at some point it’s going to happen and yeah if the masses are not ready they are screwed. So yeah public officials that are reading this stop placating the public and very gently nudge them into getting ready. (Cause your not coming to my house)

Read the details in those links Skye posted again…these were NOT pandemic illness situations where leaving the house is as likely to result in death as someone coming to steal your stuff. The guy in the Argentina story talks about his wife going to the hair dressers regularly, him going out and buying food, selling gold or buy ammo etc…there is no quarantine here and people are not dropping like flies all around him from a highly contagious disease nor are the people all equally affected by the situation as they would be in a pandemic more or less. While there may be some similarities it is not the same situation.

And Josephus??????? your talking about a downtrodden conquered people here, not your neighborhood, it would take a sigificant period of time for things to degenerate to the point that people are dying of hunger in the streets it does not happen over night.

As long as the government keeps putting out news and updates (which they will no matter what, spin being more important to them than planning) a large percentage of the sheeple will wait for the government to help them and will continue to believe that it eventually will help them. The main problem during Katrina was that large numbers of people having just escaped a record breaking hurricane with their lives were displaced into primative, life threatening conditions immediately with no information being diseminated and what little they heard about help coming being wrong and rumors circulating that the police and military were shooting survivors. Remember there was no CNN at the superdome. The people there believed that they had been left to die. The Katrina situation was almost instantly hopeless for most people and many immediately feared for their lives.

If people are in their own homes being told “Everything is under control and this is just a precaution”, able to get info (be it true or false) from the government and still believe at least for a time that the cavalry is coming eventually, the vast majority of people will stay where they are and just wait and hope. Hopeful people generally don’t go marauding. It will take either a total shut down of utilties right away and/or several weeks to a month of zero help/available supplies for people to start thinking about doing violence to their neighbors and again, the existing criminal element aside, the average person does not turn to violence as their first method of obtaining something they need or want.

Sure there might be some problems arise if an official quarantine lasts more than a few weeks and it becomes clear to the masses that the National Guard is not gonna be dropping off MREs, but there will not be armed hordes raiding the countryside or mass exodus from urban centers until AFTER people lose hope of any help coming. And heck, even after seeing the mess of Katrina, the majority of people on the street still believe that Uncle George has got them covered…hope springs eternal.

Well after they lose any hope of help coming and start pillaging and plundering your still not coming to my house :)

Our power went out the other day, 3 hours. The house was at 62 degrees with a heater going and a near blizzard outside. I quickly realized the progress I had made in preparations was NILL! Three months of food looked very daunting in the dark. We now have another large canister of fuel for the heater, several multi-wick candles, and hurricane lamps with almost pure parifin fuel (gallons of it) to give light and heat. We have another big storm due tonight. That was only the electricity. If it all goes out, I am not prepared. Even if I can feed myself, I will not be fat nor happy about how I go about it. Prepared and comfortable are worlds apart.

About hordes of “them” coming to steal from the city, my home and ski/mountain property are valued at 3/4 mln and the next door neighbor is my biggest fear. Petty vandalism began soon after we moved in, and I KNOW they they only have enough firewood for the occasional fire. They would steal from us in a heart beat as we have several cords of wood my husband cut. We have a shotgun, and they aren’t coming to my house either. I would, however, give a weeks provisions should their children come asking. How could I not?

Annoyed Max (et al) - I can understand the mental movie that you must be viewing inside your head. Heroic Max stands off the approaching hoardes with salvo after salvo of field mortar and RPG. As they approach closer, he brings up the 50 cal. automatic rifles. The few that make it inside the effective keep-out zone of those weapons he engages first with his side arm and then hand-to-hand.

If you intend to engage any and all comers single handedly in fire fights to protect yourself, I expect you will ultimately lose. Remaining a member of your community for mutual support will provide you with a far more realistic chance of survival in the long run. That’s why human being invented tribes, and then villages.

Thank you Eccles.

The population of the USA increases by 25% with births and immigration in only 10 years or less. In my lifetime and I am in my 30′s, the USA doubled its population. So losing 25% of the population can be regained quickly enough. In my opinion, quarantines will erupt in violence, or any place where people are stuck together. There’s lots of food in stores, etc to loot, if it comes to that, rather than fighting a homeowner for food. I’m more afraid of the military and or “other people” going around inspecting to see if you are infected or not. If you got it, your screwed anyway, but possibly being taken somewhere scares me. “They” may take the sick or take the healthy “somewhere safe”.

Annoyed

Whoa, it’s really scary inside your head.

You mentioned that everyones had plenty of warning and if they haven’t prepared then that’s they’re problem.

For everyone who holds to this, I just want to bring up a few points.

Do any of you smoke? There isn’t a soul on this planet who doesn’t know all the risks and dangers. But still they smoke. So what if we applied the same mentalilty above to this situation.

Let’s say you wake up one morning and the smokers cough is worse than usual and then you notice your coughing up a significant amount of blood. Now your pretty scared and call the Dr. Your at your appointment and your telling the Dr. what happened and he says, “Listen, I’ve warned you before about smoking and now it looks like you’ve developed some complications, not the least of which could be cancer. Look, I have a full schedule today and the whole week, I’ll see what I can do next week. But you know the policy, you were warned that if you get sick from smoking it’s pretty much your own fault. Go on home, don’t call us we’ll call you.”

How about: -Do you only drink in moderation, (moderation defined by the health profession, not your drinking buddies). -Are you at a healthy weight and do you get regular cardiovascular exercize three or more times a week. -Do you eat a heart healthy diet. -Do you always buckel up and make everyone who rides with you do the same. -Do you never let a 12yr old or younger child ride in the front passenger seat if you have an air bag. -Do you and your children always wear a helmet while biking, skating and skateboarding. -Do you always change your firealarm batteries on the days we change the clocks or no less than twice a year.

The list goes on and on. And these warnings are being thrown at us everyday. You can’t get away from them. But few people heed them all.

The thing is we’re human and we don’t always make good decisions. Everyone on this forum must realize we’re a minority, not because we see things so clearly and have the common sense to act quickly. And not because we’re nuts and a bunch of scaremongers, but because this is our basic personality.

In basic psych, we’re divided into two types. (At least we were when I was in college in the mid ‘80′) Those with internal and external centers of control. We are most definetly internal. We want to control our destinies, we’re not leaving anything up to others that we can control ourselves. They’re are different degrees in each group and we’re more to the extreme, plus we have an extremely strong sense to protect our loved ones. Some of you have been at this prepping for a long, long time. Others more recently, like myself. Still more of our personality type will join us in the future.

Then they’re are those with the external center of control. They come in all degrees also, down to the type who feel they are powerless and totally without any way to change their destiny. This group will most likely never prepare. Are they stupid, should we let them “pay the price.” I hope not, because it takes all types to keep this world going and that person might be the guy or gal that works at the power plant, or drives a delivery truck for Walmart. Maybe he or she is the night nursing supervisor in your local ER. We will need everyone if the worst case were to come about.

We’re all different, and with tons of baggage and problems. Be thankful you can act to help yourself in any situation that arises, but always be prepared to help others. Nothing is more satisfying than helping others. And nothing will feel so bad as knowing you denied others help and they in turned suffered miserably.

As a mental exercise, rather than stocking increasing supplies of ammo, how do you think it would work if instead you stocked an extra couple of 25 pound bags of rice, a few extra pounds of coffee and an extra sack of beans. Now, you can help out your neaighbors to an extent that will permit them to keep going. Perhaps they’ll be able to return the favor later on if the emergency proves to be extended. Maybe the one you were going to shoot is really good at carpentry and he’ll help you get your home ready for the next winter when things will be tougher.

Scaredy Cat I love your care package idea. I have a new couple who moved in recently next door. He’s a naval physician and she’s a nurse who stays at home to care for their 4 kids all under 6, three in diapers. The youngest are all adopted from overseas and I know they aren’t prepping, they’re surviving. But my husband and I are prepared to step in to help them along when and if. My neighbor across the street is a single mom who is also the emergency dispatch supervisor for the major city we live near. We have also planned to be there for her kids. But outside of that I think the care packages is a fantastic way to provide for others we encounter.

This care package thing is a very good idea. I will start on this today. I am in town and it will be my shopping day after I get off work.

Eccles is correct in how to game this if it does not go beyond stage 2 or 3. Annoyed is on the mark if it goes to stage 4 or 5. But one aspect that needs to be emphasized, regardless of the severity of the situation, is the pooling of resources and strength. There will be good “tribes” that are not intent on aggression (and who have prepared) and bad “tribes” (ad hoc bands consisting of criminal, panicked, and desperate inidividuals). Human nature is what it is. Annoyed is closer to reality, but the ideal of Eccles must be pursued in order to maximize your chances of survival. But if the ideal fails to materialize for whatever reason, you had better have a gun in order to have a chance. Predators generally move on to easy prey, and there will be plenty of them, predators and easy prey. A well-armed, well-provisioned, healty community/tribe will be the last to be assaulted.

As an aside, despite the continuing mutations and spread of H5N1, I am still hopeful that a pandemic will be avoided or delayed for some time. This viral asteroid may be a near-miss, just like SARS was.

annoyed max- not mad yet – at 14:11

“I have read most if not all of the posting on here and other survival sites and you will find several on power plants from people who work there. Time and again it was said that there has been zero talk, let alone prep for a pandemic. OK so you somehow force the workers to stay, what do they eat, how do they shower, what if one of them got it somehow and infected the rest of the plant?”

Thanks Max!!! I finally understand what is happening on that show Lost!!! :)

Sorry, I am just trying to lighten the mood a little. ;)

Despite the planning that is necessary (re: work force, business) like any other disaster I think we will see the best and worst from everyday people. Some doctors will run, some cleaning people will stay. Vice versa.

Since I’ve been reading these discussions, I’m so relieved to hear people with good sense,sharp wit, compassion and sense of humor engaging their mental products and forming ideas that can be simplified and shared with those who don’t have time. A lot of not being in the loop and not preparing is just not having time to talk, read etc. Some people (sheeple is cute, but I’d rather not condescend) are truly busy 20 hours a day just to keep food on the table and kids fed, washed, clothed, etc. Mom11 is a busy one, but she has a husband helping with the money and lots of moms don’t. I feel like my role in all of this, besides trying to keep my own family going, is to learn a good approach and make it simple enough to pass along, in a 3 minute conversation, to neighbors. If they can get the point and start making some preparations, that’s a step. Hope I’m not too slow!

I was thinking worse case scenarios is something I really don’t want to contempate, then I read my local papers yesterday and today. A native of Guatamala was fired a few weeks ago. (Landscaping, its getting cold, jobs aren’t there) Anyway he gets this great idea. Kidnap the bosses wife and ask for a million Dollar ransom. He does so, duct tapes her and using her car dumps her in a barn though she has told him she is a diabetic and needs meds. She wriggles her way to a peice of board, managed to break her bonds and runs into the roadway screaming. (This all a few miles away from my home) In a few hours he is caught due to his inability to use the cell phone he borrowed from a friend. End of scenario. Is kidnapping going to start here as well as in Mexico , South America, and Iraq? If this has happened on my doorstep, what happened in the Wake of Katrina will happen here in the suburbs, where a headline might me, “Horse or sheep loose in road.” We have so many illegals, and legals. Hard working so they get jobs. Quiet mostly so they aren’t noticable. I’m sure they are good people sending their families money and living pretty much hand to mouth themselves. But this happening while things are quiet makes me more open to the ideas expressed above. Of course the guns I posess are a brown bess from the revolutionary war, but while I’m more into (and I’ve done it) gone to the door with a can of whipped cream in case the person knocking at my door in the dark is a danger. (The police laughing after I asked if I could spray whipped cream into an intruders eyes, said yes, I could be accused of assault if they hadn’t entered the house. I don’t like hearing much of the above, but I can understand it because while of a pacifistic nature I can make fur fly if I really get het up.

I think on reflection that I’ll get a can of pepper spray, and some duct tape. If a pacifistic grandmother can protect herself (and I have) anyone can.

Anne, Whipped cream - I love it!

Baseball bat and pepper spray here. Guns and babies don’t mix.

John Berry said in 1918 in the height of the pandemic that people fell into two groups. Some huddled in their houses and tried to survive. Some felt they would probably die any way and decided to “live it up” They drank and had made extravagant expenditures ignoring all health precautions. I do not believe human nature has changed. As a prosecuting attorney, I see every day under normal conditions that there are people out there who enjoy hurting other people and destroying other people’s stuff. New Orleans showed us that these people are brazen in strained circumstances when there is little chance of getting caught. There will be gangs roaming the streets. They will probably burn houses for sport. So it is wise to be able to protect yourself. There are a lot of houses in a city and they may never find mine or any of yours. You just need to prepare, just in case. I also plan to share my food with my hungry neighbors if needed. They will help me defend our neighborhood if need be. We have already discussed this in earthquake type senerios. I have told everyone I know about bird flu and how to prepare. They think I am crazy. Some people just can’t be reached, but I still try.

Get a gun and be prepared to use it. Period.

If/when this pandemic comes, it won’t arrive overnight. It’s expected to travel around the world in waves and most of us will have at least several weeks to prepare if we know we’re facing something very dire. And there will probably be periods of reprieve to recoup and regroup between the worst of the waves.

But that initial lead time of several weeks that we get following the widespread realization that this is now imminent and certain and very serious, is what I see as the critical period when everyone will or should be very busy doing everything possible:

• Businesses, governments, disaster coordinators and health authorities will react with various degrees of efficacy—some will certainly screw up, others will at last discover focus and drill down to what are the real essentials to survival. So yes, we can’t count on them all, but I don’t doubt that human ingenuity will act to mitigate the worst of it—and it will be up to us to seize and make the best of whatever they manage to provide.

• Those of us stocking up in phases will rush our own preparations to completion. And we’re probably all resourceful enough that whatever we miss, we’ll likely be able to work around, to barter, etc.

• Many of our neighbours will be in panic. To the extent that we can help them get focussed on the essentials and organized, we will be helping ourselves, and we should do so. The earlier we can do this the better, but the reality is that until the threat is certain and imminent, most neighbourhoods won’t be prepared to take this seriously and invest the energy needed.

Major problems for many will be a) liquidity (cash to buy enough to stock up) and b) the inevitable shortages that will occur as people panic buy at the last moment. But resourceful capitalists will surely find ways to keep some supplies moving to some extent as the pandemic waves wax and wane. And bless their noble hearts, but there will certainly also be amongst us those heroic volunteers who will work with local charities to provide food banks and soup kitchen for the neediest. In most cases, if the stores are empty, people will tend to see those as a less troublesome option than raiding the neighbours’ (who may very well be armed or have the virus!)

So when people find themselves panicked by the prospect of wild-eyed hordes raiding their supplies, remember that mankind also has a resourceful side, and a noble side, and that we have the intelligence to act collectively for the common good when we really need to.

I see lots of reason for optimism and it will be up to those of us who are informed and prepared to offer the kind of calm, thoughful leadership than can ensure that our own communities take the high road, for the most part, not the low road.

My preparation for post-pandemic violence is to recertify in Basic First Aid and CPR and to have filled my two M-3 bags with fresh dressings.

Anon,

“So when people find themselves panicked by the prospect of wild-eyed hordes raiding their supplies, remember that mankind also has a resourceful side, and a noble side, and that we have the intelligence to act collectively for the common good when we really need to.”

Taking your point, but a good bit of what you say about collectivity and resourcefullness has to do with government; in a sense much more than they deliver, that’s pretty much what we pay them to do.

If the dumb asses got off their dumb asses and called for some organization and mobilization enough before the fact, the kind of desperation we posit here and there might not come to pass.

Thus, one of many useful purposes this forum can serve is to build and apply unrelenting political pressure.

For sixteen years I was the alpha dog to a giant beta german shepherd. My dear Noble sweet Maxx. A gentler more loving dog does not exist, until, once someone who was univited didn’t take no for an answer. It only took one low growl and a show of his shining fangs(he looked with his fur all stuck up like a phantom dog from a horror movie) The univited, exited white as death.My husband favored shepherds as he had one as a child who accompanied him up and down his street. He had dogs who followed him to school and waited for his return.So now every time I see someones German Shepherd I want to run over and give a big hug and a tickle under the chin, just as babies get us all smaltzy. A new neighbor has volunteered to care for any dog I aquire when I leave on one of my jaunts. Various people have offered to put me up for open ended periods of time should I feel the need. I still only have my tamiflu, some sauerkraut and my recipe for Kim Chi, but one day I’ll clear my traveling gear out of my car and go for a fell swoop of items.Might I suggest a gentle dog with a reputaion for ferocity to some who are not testosteroned to the gills. I have faced down a few very nasty characters in my day, those you wouldn’t even the most macho of you like to meet in a dark alley, and before I’m through with them they were not pussy cats, but a lot more reasonable, lets say cowed. Oh course the lady immured in the cold barn on Hardscrabble road had been forced out at the point of a gun, but she wriggled and struggled enoughso her bonds were loosened a bit. I wonder whats going to happen to the illegals in our surrounding towns. I bet they slink off to other locals, and I hate to sound this way, but there are so many, adios and don’t come back.

Sorry, not afraid or cautious. I do post my name.

Maxx was so big that someone once asked if I intended to ride him home.

Since I’m not going out to buy a baseball bat it seemed logical to be thrifty and use up what I have. A couple of tennis raquets in a heavy press, boy that would give someone a great bloody nose. A scythe for the meadows in the garage. A tire iron. A prybar. Aheavy mallet and so on and so on. My basement and garage are a veritable arsenal, and I never thought about it before. Depending on Maxx, on whipped cream and hair spray is really low tech.I’m not teasing you, I’m actually serious. When it comes to defending ourselves we all can get very ingenious, even without a Colt, a Remington or a Winchester. You can guess how ancient I must be from my weapons of choice.

Noone here seems to have turned a hair about the kidnapping. A very specific case they say about a man distressed over being fired, with a wife in Guatamala who needed money. His fellow Central Americans are distressed that others will think their bad people. I don’t think their bad people, and one depressed person seeking revenge and money is just one. But I think others besides myself are locking their houses , becoming wary. Usually its just a gypsy band who ask someone for a glass of water and divert the homeowner while the house is being burgled. This is a town where people tend not to lock up their cars, until the last few years when things changed. Its a town that sort of keeps an eye open when they notice strangers, live and let live, but watch out. Its a town that is being yanked out of the 50′s into a less friendly time. Not Mad Max time just yet.Still rational and forgiving. I just hope its not Mad Max time anywhere..

>Anne, Whipped cream - I love it!

And you can hit them with nuts and a cherry, too, as they run off! ^_^

If they don’t run off, exchanging the whipped cream for oven cleaner may be needed. A spray of that can cause chemical burns and permanent blindness, so it’s a move to be used only in desperation…

>Baseball bat and pepper spray here. Guns and babies don’t mix.

Actually, guns and babies CAN mix, because babies are too small and immobile to get into much trouble with them. It’s when they grow into curious, active children who don’t understand the dangers that they can’t be allowed to mix…

But a baseball bat is good! Especially used as a thrusting rather than swinging weapon so it’s harder to dodge and your attack recovery time is less.

Well, I supose a 25 pound bag of rice swung with full strength could also be of some value…

Wherever I end up living/staying for the duration of the pandemic, I’ll be happy to help out neighbors if I have extra supplies…my one concern is that I’ll have to have contact with someone who might be infected. Would it be completely over-paranoid of me to not allow anyone inside and not leave my residence at all during the pandemic? I don’t want to be selfish, and I know that many of my actions are selfish already, but the interest of self-preservation might prevent me from being either willing or able to help someone out if it meant contact with someone who’s been exposed.

Dubina said, “If the dumb asses got off their dumb asses and called for some organization and mobilization enough before the fact, the kind of desperation we posit here and there might not come to pass.”

HERE, HERE! I toast to that declaration.

This discussion and some of the points you have brought up have me thinking that perhaps I could stick it out in the city? Or a suburb? That maybe I don’t have to and shouldn’t try to escape to Nanabut (my personal “Guam”). I have an acquaintance who owns a townhouse in the burbs…he invited me to join him and his roommate when the time to sequester is at hand. Unfortunately it’d be a little awkward.

But maybe not as unsafe as I thought. Maybe the woods/mountains/rural areas aren’t the only safe place to be?

That’s the whole problem with pandemic planning. Nobody knows what we should do, they just have some ideas. I live in a high crime southern US city in a suburban house. I think I am safest in my home. I would not want to be in an apartment building if possible because I fear the air condtioning/ heating circulation of the air would send germs from one apartment to the next. As far as how charitable/paranoid we will act, it depends upon the severity of the virus. Dr Michael Olsterholm is an alarmist, a worst case senerio guy. He said on a tv show that even in the worst case senerio 98% of humans will live. In that instance, I would go out into the world with a N-95 mask and a spray bottle of alcohol to spray on surfaces and would interact with the world (ie work and support my family. The news reports and Dr. Robert Webster make this virus seem much worse. They speak of how virulent and lethal it is. The latest info on lung x-rays indicates to me that the survivors may have permanent lung damage. I know the 1918 flu left some people with permanent neurological damage from John Berry’s book. If that is true I am locking my family in. “Prepare for the worst and hope for the best” is my motto. Given that no one knows what to do You just guess and do what you can. Good Luck!

FW; You’de be suprised at the effect a winchester aimed at an intruder can have. But when I go for a fel swoop of supplies (I’m mulling it over) I’ll think of you when I pass the nuts and the cherries. (never buy the stuff)

Not that this is germain, but the authorities have praised the kidnap victim for not struggling at the point of a gun (he evidently also had a knife) She went docily. My question, would she still be alive if she hadn’t managed to saw through the duct tape. She wasn’t dressed for our weather. 3 inches of snow. In a cold barn she would have died of hypothermia.I know I wouldn’t use oven cleaner, (I don’t have an oven and it will go to waste),but given my personality (open and sunny) yet under it all tempered steel. I know that I would not face an intruder with a smile, but pretty much a barrage of a lot more than nuts and cherries. Not a sub machine gun, but maybe an Arabian scimitar or the the bayonet that I keep on my fireplace mantle. You know we all revert to primitive means under life threatening conditions. I know what I am and what I am not capable of doing. I wasn’t contemplating any of this before the kidnapping, but thinking about what we are and are not capable of doing under duress isn’t such a bad idea. If a baseball bat gives a little peace of mind, get a baseball bat. People are always comparing me to this or that literary heroine, maybe all we women are a cross between Scarlet batting her eyes at her beaus one minute and facing down a Yankee marauder the next, and Melanie. I think anyone who has posted here at all is capable of a great variety of behaviors. Giving help to someone who isn’t a threat, and facing down someone who is.

The more I learn about what could be in store, the more I doubt that it’s realistic to think that one could simply stock up and hide out at home until a pandemic is over.

For a start, it will likely take 1 to 2 years to pass completely, and it’s highly unlikely that any but the most extreme among us could hide out at home for that long. Apart from the “cabin fever” aspect, you’re bound to run out of something, or find that you’ve forgotten something.

Then once the pandemic is officially over, the virus might still be lurking around, just that it would no longer be lethal because all survivors now have immunity — so what happens when you eventually come out of hiding?

The only realistic way I can see it working is stocking up on the stuff that’s most likely to run out in the initial mass panic, and then doing stuff like paying bills online and buying in bulk to minimize potential exposure during the early waves until it’s clearer what we’re dealing with.

In any event, we’d have to hope and pray that they can come up pretty quickly with an effective vaccine whose side effects won’t end up killing or permanently maiming you.

Anon said, “In any event, we’d have to hope and pray that they can come up pretty quickly with an effective vaccine whose side effects won’t end up killing or permanently maiming you.”

And we’d have to hope, too, that we could safely leave our abodes after many months of hiding and actually get to the clinics for vaccines without first becoming infected…sobering though it is, I have a scenario of this pictured in my mind that’s almost comical.

This all begins to sound like “The Omega Man” after a while.

The Canadians, who seem to have more “Survivalists” per capita than the Americans, have their own take on planning for the future.

“There will be social change and disruption,” Edmonton police Supt. P.J. Duggan says. “But there will not be social disorder.”

Survival Strategies: Stock up and steel yourself for ‘societal disruption’

Edmonton Journal: Survival Strategies

Good on you Canucks.

Few will be able to remain isolated at home for months on end…and who would want to? Yet, home isolation with occasional, careful forays out might save countless lives. So much will depend on astute organization before the fact and life-saving information delivered efficiently during the wave.

I have a feeling that a pandemic is quite a quiet, non violent event.

Clarky, what about during the weeks and months between “waves”? I think that if there is a breakdown of the economy and most vital services/public agencies on which we depend, there will absolutely be chaos, especially after the first wave. There’ll be survivors scrambling for food, weapons, safe drinking water, whatever they might need. Those who are not preparing for the flu now (or very soon) will be caught in a rough spot. Violence, or at least disorder, is inevitable.

Neonanswer - I disagree with your assessment. In the 1918 Pandemic, the first wave was less severe. It was the second one which was so devastating. I don’t think that the inter-wave period will look like life after a nuclear war. Nor after the second wave either. The image you are presenting is pretty bleak. If H5N1 stays sufficiently virulent to cause the level of devastation you are describing, then no amount of preparation could potentially be sufficient to carry you through. You are describing the entry into a new Dark Ages, and I don’t think that’s where we’ll end up.

The comment on what do you do when you finally do come out. If you are correct and most of the people are immune then the virus would not be “hanging around” and there would be a herd immunity. There would not be enough people that are susceptible to the virus to sustain it. Even if you had no immunity there would be no one left to give it to you.

annoyed max,

One of the things I learned from the viral geneticists is that the virus will probably continue to change after acheiving H2H transmission, which means that the survivors could have no immunity. Something to think about.

The only hope then, I think, is if it continues to mutate and becomes a non-lethal virus.

Well the dinasauers came and went, far more successful than us evolved apes.They had a metior and we have the avian flu for which we may never develope an immunity. Sobering isn’t it. But we don’t really know. The nice thing about us is our ingenuity and persistance. The dinasauers don’t have a clue, or even a chance. They were doomed. We aren’t.

Thinking about this for a few minutes. I don’t intend to talk about this to anyone anymore off this site or to my children. Let everyone enjoy their Christmas, let everyone be as oblivious as possible. I am not being fatalistic in this, more what will be will be. We can’t predict its evolution (boy oh boy the intelligent design people out there) it will evolve and mutate, evolve and mutate, and no immunity ? Our only hope as Grace says, that it weakens as it mutates? Its far better that people seem almost blind, in one ear and out the other, like Mom 11 children. There she is Mother Courage, and god bless her Madonna is a princess in her red dress and tiara. Thats great.

“The nice thing about us is our ingenuity and persistence.”

…and our genetic diversity, which, let’s not forget, could be what saves us in the end. There is increasing evidence from SE Asia that many milder cases of H5N1 infection in humans are going undetected because some individuals seem less vulnerable than others.

And one other critical attribute, which is evident from this board — our instinct to work collectively, to pool our talents to help each other up. We tend to worship the “rugged individualists” who lead the way, but blazing trails accomplishes nothing unless there are others to follow and patiently build something more permanent through collective action and community spirit.

Anne -

“Our only hope as Grace says, that it weakens as it mutates”

From the sketchy report of the nurse in Vietnam and others, this seems to be what has been seen in even the first H2H cases. While many seem to find great stimulation in envisioning the end of the world due to H5N1 as though we are facing into a Hollywood Horror movie, please bear in mind the following:

As nasty a critter as H5N1 currently is, it still seems to have great trouble getting from human to human, or else the Pandemic would have already happened. The virologists tell us that the price it will need to pay for human capability is a lessening of its virulence. This we seem to have already seen in the Vietnam cases. The 1918 Pandemic was the nastiest bug that mankind had faced for several centuries, and yet it only managed a 1% fatality rate (at least here in the US, in cities like Phila). Due to genetic variability, some of us will be more susceptible, some less.

Even in a Pandemic, the anticipation is that about 1/2 the population will be infected. Of them, about 1/2 will be asymptomatic, 1/2 will go on to acute illness. Of them, most will survive.

What all of this tells us is that while not the nicest pet to have around, mankind will survive its encounter with H5N1. Society will survive. Most people currently alive will survive. H5N1 is not the boggie man. It is not the radioactive monster from the 1950′s horror flicks. It is a virus with particularly antisocial properties, it will leave a major mark on humanity as it passes, but lets keep our visions of the future in perspective.

Have a happy and quiet Holiday Season.

Anne- amen to that.

An irony comes to mind. Isn’t the first peridactyl, the flying dinasauer a prologue to the birds, and the birds are carrying the virus which may wipe out millions of us, give or take a few. I’m not into evolutionary transitions, less than some bright kid traipsing through the Museum of Natural History. Well the folks at the Hotel I stayed in Greenland during an April blizzard that swept down from the Artic Circle, have a three year supply of food in their freezers and a good generator. There are places where people might escape unscathed. No it isn;t the end of us all, but certainly something everyone who can see it must consider, but I really am glad a lot of us are oblivious. The beauty from Shanghai who sat next to me a lunch yesterday didn’t seem to know a thing about the dissidents messages out of China. She seemed puzzled. Everyone at the table was completly unconcerned and we ended talking simply of the younger generation and their hopes.

Eccles,

Close enough…

Pandemics work best when nobody is looking. And everybody is watching this one.

or are we witnessing a southeast asian “heraldic wave?”

On reading the conclusions of the influenza epidemics effects on the City of Schenectady, the last sentence explains the apparent indifferenc we all note in others.”The human mind always tries to expunge the intolerable from memory, just as it tries to conceal it while current.” Http://www.schenectady/history.org/health/morris/conclusion, htm This explains to me the blank look we get when such a distressing possibility is brought up. Ah when we are ready to face up to things then we do. Otherwise? Forget it.

http://www.schenectadyhistory.org/health/morris/index.html

Update on the kidnapping. The perp. asks for forgiveness. Her was drinking, he meant to free her , was thinking about it in the afternoon before his arrest. He really only wanted the money the contractor owed him. The contractor refuses to comment on that, but the wife isn’t ready to forgive and forget. The perp, knows he faces 20 years in prison and extradition. Sad, indeed. Perhaps he had a genuine greivance, and chose the most stupid way of addressing it. Well. the end of a sorry business. His wife and children will also pay a heavy price.

after reading one post that is vile, I can understand even the most extreme precauctions against marauders. They do tend to be big cowards. I once sat opposite three skinheads, stoned on alcohol and drugs as they cowed and insulted various people, When they said to me “bitch, what are you looking at” I said “Someone as drunk as a skunk and meaner than a junkyard dog.” A chinese gentlemen thanked me for saying that, and I got off the tube(England) and arranged for them to get tossed off at the next stop.Well I can see what you will be protecting yourself against. I’m not prepared with food, but I do know how to shoot a rifle.

Anne, you are one sweet number.

Well I have a German Luger and a 22 rifle among the things we divided when my dad died, he had 4 girls and we each got our choice of guns. I’m hoping I don’t ever need mine but it’s nice to know I have them. It’s on my list to go to the shooting range and have someone give me some pointers - against my husband’s wishes but it’s better to actually know what you’re doing with a gun than just thinking you remember from childhood how to handle one. You all may think this is stupid but one of my biggest concerns is how quickly the schools and government offices will close once this flu shows up. I have a high schooler and realize how quickly she may bring this bug home. I work in state government, actually am part of the emergency response team making some of the decisions on a state basis, I just want everything to shut down once the bug makes the transition to human transmission. For some silly reason I keep thinking once this bug is actually transmittable that someone will come up with a vaccine and we can all go to a drive through to get our shots. I could survive for a few months at home and once I see its out there, I can quickly purchase additional food supplies for another few months. I have face masks from back when SARRS first showed up in Asia. I’d like to think face masks and hand washing will help in keeping us healthy. Back in 1968 I was a child and ended up in the hospital dehydrated from the hong kong flu. I have a ton of respect for this virus and hope I’ve made enough preparations.

I have been watching, researching (on the WWW), and preparing for this for over a year. Be afraid - be very afraid. If it hits in a very lethal form as many as 50% of the world could become infected with 25% of them dying. It may also hit us as a very mild cold. It is about a 50/50 chance of either. The scary side of 50: I don’t want to describe it. The other side of 50 buy some keenex. The problem of the reality in between is that you will not want to mingle, go out very much, or touch anything in the world for about 3 months. By that time essential people will get a vaccine shot and the rest of us will follow suit. The degree to which we engage our communities in dialogue will determine how well we fair. Do not think that you can become an island. Speak your truth quietly and clearly to those you come in contact with. We have a family plan to include extended relatives, guns, a generator, one house, food, cooking, wood heat, led light, and things to do to allow us to stay sane. Yes I will help before the emergence, but once it starts…our doors are locked. It is much harder for a virus to kill people if you do not give it the opportunity to spread.

Carolina Girl - I can quickly purchase additional food supplies for another few months.

The fallacy in this assumption is that a great many other people probably think the same thing. As I sit here, I am only a few hours from the arrival of a major winter storm. As usual, the 11:00 news showed the crowds of people stripping the stores of shovels, salt, milk, bread and eggs. Usually, by the time the crowd gets done, the shelves are about bare of these items. Now imagine everyone all at once learning that a global Pandemic has just been confirmed. Are you sure that the supply system will keep the shelves filled with the items you need/want, and that you will be among the earliest actors to get there “fussest with the mostest”?

(By the way, have you noticed that the survival recipe for a snow storm must be French Toast? That’s what the ingredients make.)

what I don’t understand is, that none of your preparation plans involve some sort of organisation. You’re concerned about guns,food,water but you are trying to get these in isolated groups of friends or families. What made manking great is organisation and building states ! You might some food today by going into the forest and using the tricks you learned as boyscouts. But in the long run you will only survive when you manage to grow corn , build factories, distribute the tasks, trade.

So IMO, there should be towns and communities with specific preparedness programs, like isolation regulations, special laws for crisis-times, common storage and production for water,food, industry,trade,defense.

These laws might well be in conflict with federal or state laws. But presumably those won’t care, when the laws just regulate things within the community.

Deer in the headlights is all you get when you ask people to prepare. Not for lack of trying.

Guns? Looters? Shortages? Where are my game theorists? H5N1 is a level 3 aerosol biohazard. There will be nothing to fear from those exposed. What you require right now is instruction on preventing exposure - and methods for disinfecting full face N100 respirators, tyvek suits, gloves and clothing. You need phenol based farm disinfectants for the clothes washer,your boots, slickers and hard surfaces; stove alcohol (mixed at 5% with isopropanol)for skin, and an ozonator (UV light)in a box for disinfecting the mask filters. You CAN get pretty close to professional protection when properly instructed. The urban hazard, even for those prepared, is fire - from primitive heating and cooking, - no responders, and insufficient water pressure in elevated structures. Urban or rural, you will have to venture forth-fully protected from your fogged down safe area to recover abandoned supplies among the casualties and secondary infections. If we can protect our chickens, we can surely protect ouselves, all we have to do is rip off the warning labels. Let’s get on with it.

gs, so far the towns and communities have too high a percentage of people with desks who say,

“the local plan is, we will wait for instruction from the state and federal level”

and some local authorities have expressed publically that they don’t think “bird flu” is going to be a problem, nor come to the US. Lightbulbs are starting to go on in some heads, but time has been wasted and lay people get tired of being ridiculed for trying to work outside the channels and do what the authorities should be doing to connect community resources and brainstorm tough calls for very overwhelming problems if 1-in-4 or 1-in-6, or whatever number one wants to work with, either dies, is ill or family is ill, or just (rightfully in case of deadly pandemic with no PPE nor vaccine) afraid to show up at work. There aren’t easy answers. (But, better discussed now than later.)

They also don’t have the authority to get people to act on their suggestions. Other people, that would like to buy surge supplies for their hospitals or workplaces, can’t, as they haven’t prepared reports that can convince the bean-counters and the bean-counters’ bosses, that such expenses would be justified.

I hope we get time for better education and plans to trickle down from feds to state to locals to the public… but we can’t count on Time. (Nor should bet on the virus going away.)

Grassroots have to start from their end, and if I have to start from worst-case and plan from there, that’s what I’ll do, because we’d be the ones stuck with “worst case”. It strikes people as too pessimistic. Oh well. The official end has mostly spent the past year gaming the mileages/costs/time factors for distributing vaccines or medicines for a non-contagious bio-terrorism anthrax attack, and how to guard the warehouses/distribution points for same. Putting “pandemic flu” in plans in place of the words “SARS” or “anthrax” isn’t going to work.

If it is very deadly I suppose we won’t have as much problems in the street, if it is not very deadly but still disrupts all the nations, and distribution systems, then there will be more chaos, I guess.

(Wonder if the local firefighters have everything they need? If their budget won’t buy it, maybe the locals would like to chip in for it? Many of our first responders can’t even afford to live in town! Hm, maybe I need another fire extinguisher…)

Well, nowed in. A ex neighbor passed and sent her daughter and a friend to help me get my car out. Another neighbor shoveling called me over. We spoke about the kidnapping, and I told her about the flu wiki. She offered me her old laptop, and I’m too out and about most of the time to bother with one at home. Small town America. Maybe a few of my neighbors might log in eventually. She was well aware what its all about, otherwise I wouldn’t have talked about it too much.I see the very best there is in America, but I know what can be the worst. I told her if it gets too bad I probably will get a permit for a hand gun. This little 6 in snow closed schools and libraries. The mall, where I’m out right now is booming. I this this site can be the very best in America, if we all use our smarts, pool our knowledge and face the tough questions and discuss them.

gs- the goal here is to get educated, pass the knowledge along to others, and so on and so on. For my township/county-their plans are to follow the state plan. the state plan depends on the federal plan. And in the HHS plan it is stated that in the event of a pandemic, local authorities will be on their own. Get involved in your area- raise awareness, get educated and educate-but no panic. That will turn people off quickly.

Wow I am glad I started this thread I guess it got a lot of people thinking. Since I have the imagine and prepare for the worst and hope for the best mentality I would like to propose another question along these lines. OK its here and its wicked bad….There are looters and violence going on. You get a “visit” and are forced to dispatch your visitor. What do you do now? A few questions to consider. 1) You now have a body to deal with, likely in your home or hanging out your window. How do you move it, where do you put it? 2) Are there going to be legalities to worry about or its not going to matter at this point? Like do you destroy the crime scene to secure your house. Are the cops even coming any time soon? 3) Is the body contaminated, assume it is, what additional problems will this pose. 4) OK now you have the body out of your house ( I am picturing my situation in the suburbs) its going to start to smell and get gross/spread disease. Do you bury the body, or burn it. Legal ramifications of this, once again will that matter in the long run?

That’s a bridge I’ll cross if I get to it. I plan to ask my mayor-how will the township run with 50% of the cops out sick/50% less supplies are available to the township ie gas etc, and about 150–200% more need for police/fire rescue? Not to mention potential unstable influx of people leaving the cities to stay with relatives in our area-considered a little rural-and the very small few area hospitals filled/possibly turning people away. What plans can we make, and make on our own (ie township level) because if it gets to that, there will be NO reliable help coming from county/state/federal levels. I’d like to work on developing a plan A,B,C, etc.

better chase him away by threatening with the gun than actually shooting. You even needn’t a real gun, a toy-gun is cheaper ! A telefone or sirene or camera or spray could also work

Annoyed Max and others thinking about using guns to protect yourself. Have you ever had to use a gun to protect yourself, have you ever had a complete stranger crawl through your window in the middle of the night, intending to commit a violent crime upon you? If not, you don’t know how you feel or how you will react. I have, and I can tell you I waited till the last possible moment - had the gun loaded, sitting on the bathtub waiting for the intruder to break down the bathroom door. Fortunately for me, the distinct sound of the revolver clicking into place was enough to scare off my intruder, but 20 years later the memory brings back the fear and adrenalin I felt that night. Had I shot the intruder, then yes, I would have had a body in the middle of my bedroom and would have had to answer a lot of questions for the authorities.

I value life and now I opt for non-lethal protection. Pepper mace, baseball bat, etc. I would get a dog before I’d buy another gun.

Annoyed-good questions. I moved far into the retreat of the red states long ago for similar concerns. I shudder getting caught in a situation like that in a jurisdiction that requires registration/ premits, or worse yet, bans possesion. Period.

In any case, leave the deceased in place, untouched, go to another room to phone the police; don’t come out until they arrive-hopefully another family member will be a witness. Don’t pick up shell casings. Remeber precisely where your feet were planted. Don’t clean yourself. Put your gun down with the chamber/slide open away from you in another room when the police arrive. Let the police know in advance which room you’ll be in (maybe leave the key under the mat) and tell the dispatch where the gun is. Let them come and find you-don’t go to meet them. Their nerves will be set on kill. They will ask for details-give them the basics where you/ he were, what was said if anything-you’ll be better off if you give a warning first and have a witness. Admit to having an intent to stop the attack only, not to kill-they’ll note the wounds. One or two in the center of mass is one thing, four in the back plus one in the head plus a broken leg from a bloody baseball bat and a wound to his Pinto’s radiator is another. When the basics are covered, politely say you’re very tired and distraght and wish to collect your thoughts, and then contact an attorney before signing a statement. You can’t cover up-the assailants car will be in front of your house, someone (an accomplice, perhaps) will know his whwereabouts, someone will hear the shots, and you can’t clean up the blood to the point where forensics won’t find it. The cops are diligent, upstanding people, the salt of the earth-if you can prove by a preponderence of evidence you were threatened, backed by the evidence, you stand a chance, possibly even a good one. The big problem are the politcos such as the DA-depending on his firearms stance and his constituancy, life could be hell even in the most cut and dried cases. Don’t add obstruction of justice to the situation. You’ll never see he light of day again.

Bill I wholeheartedly agree with what you said under normal circumstances. My question is more geared towards total civil breakdown. For example there are no police because none will come out of their house (ah hem N.O. police) or they are so busy it will be weeks before they would arrive. You cant leave some dude hanging half out your window for weeks. As far as what tj said about using a gun. If someone has forced their way into your house it is my understanding that you have every right to shoot to kill at that point. Enlighten me if I am wrong. You and or family are in eminent danger for life and limb and your are justified. I got mugged once and am lucky to be alive, (but you should see the other guy) believe me if it came down to it I will not hesitate for a second. I will never be a victim again, especially not in my own house and especially not in a survival pandemic situation. But I appreciate your input and scary story.

WyomingBill - Probably the most to-the-point advice I have seen on this subject. My one concern is that your advice assumes that the world is still operating mostly normally enough so that police and DA offices are still operating or will soon resume operation. Many of the posters on this thread have convinced themselves that as soon as the virons arrive it will be Mad Max at Thunderdome.

I would counsel not to assume that the rules have been destroyed because things are a bit confused for a few days or weeks during a bad outbreak. Unless there is total societal collapse, then there will be a day of reckoning for any violence, including justifiable self defense.

When asked by a family friend what to do about “the gun question” I offered this observation: If you are purchasing a weapon singularly for the anticipated conditions discussed here, then you have made a conscious decision to set into motion a series of events whose only natural culminations are either an unused and rotting weapon, or you facing someone with weapon in hand and obliged to either use the weapon on them, or have them overpower you and use it on you. If you have any doubts about your ability to follow through with no hesitation, then proceed. If you are concerned that such action could result in you harming a family member or innocent neighbor, then don’t go there at all.

Good point Eccles. Also, owning a gun for hunting purposes to feed your family is another consideration.

Thanks, Annoyed; Maybe I feel myself to be a man of infinite patience; best thing I could do, I guess in a situation like that is to make the report to the dispatcher to get it on record, and if there’s no response in a reasonable amount of time, seal the room; don’t think I’d move the gentleman until I couldn’t live with the smell, and that would take a few days (I’m a sensory retard anyway, as my wife would gladly tell you-can’t taste, can’t feel, can’t smell, etc.). If they would respond to anything, seems its a man down due to gunfire. Maybe a few hours delay (especially in the huge counties we have here with few deputies on duty), but at sometime the gendarmerie will be here. If he’s half hanging out, put some candy on the doorstep and a couple of plastic pumpkins-tell the police you were confused about the date….;=)

Eccles, well said. One of the reasons I moved to Wyoming almost 20 years ago was an insane belief that I could get by in an end of the world scenario by living off a few elk in a tent around Yellowstone. A couple things changed my mind-one a February in 1989 when a record front came through and the highs didn’t get above 35 below for two consecutive weeks (I’m now a registered, card carrying pant waisted sissy wuss-boy, yup, right here), and two, the conviction that the people in my neighborhood would go to great lengths to support their neighbors-all of whom are as well prepared as I and have the same mindset. None of us care what the other has, nor has a need but are more than willing to reach out to others, within reason. Helps to only have a half dozen neighbors in the next three mile stretch of road. Oh, guess that makes three things-with the few thousand rounds I stored up, I came to realize there probably wasn’t a going to be a need to lay waste to thousands of rampaging hoards with bandoliers full of 4-ought buck. Oh, well-it seemed a pretty good idea in Night of the Living Dead… Now I just tell people I need them ‘cause I’m a bad shot.

By all means have enough foos/water/fuels/meds stored to last a couple/few weeks.

Have a gun for self protection - assuming you learn how to use it.

But unless you live in the middle of nowhere you really do need government to function. Cant shoot every Yuppie punk who knocks on your door.

Even out, way beyond cities and suburbs and exburbs, eventually (prob sooner than you think) people would stumble upon you. I might get to you when I run out. Your neighbors might when they run out.

Could you shoot us all? Would you want to?

“But unless you live in the middle of nowhere you really do need government to function.”

Agreed, and now one better: one point that comes out of this discussion time and again is that much can be done by government and competent local authority before the fact to prevent or moderate some crisis events that might otherwise send some people desperately seeking succor.

If a pandemic comes, the time we might have to get organized and be “ready” for the first wave will depend largely on government’s signal to get serious and get started. It’s a bona fide national security issue that conversations like these can bring to bear on relutant politicians. Perhaps some politicians don’t care. If we’re swept by a severe pandemic wave, the culture will change and few incumbent politicians will remain. The card we need to play now is that any decent, sensible public servant should act reasonably and decently before the fact. Elections are just around the corner, so to speak.

Well. I remember a teenager sitting on the top of the stairs after midnight with her fathers hunting rifle on her knees, (not loaded) it did the trick.The trouble is even toy guns have gotten people shot by nervous police. Also, on the way home ilistened to the Jersey Guys on the radio for about 5 min. I usually can’t stand more than 10 at most. A female security guard flatly stated she wouldn’t put her life on the life for anyone. She has a sheild, she has a uniform, but she would run in the opposite direction if there was trouble. Another thing is the strange pugnacity of road rage. I was the third car stopping for a red light aon a slick road. I gave myself a larger distance than I might on a dry road. The young woman in the sports car behind me, not cautious, blasted her horn and passed me on theright for a turn, cussing a blue streak. This is on a peaceful day. Even a line waiting to see Santa with the kids has occassionaly turned into a free for all.Just imagine people grabbing for the last box of cereal. It doesn’t take much for some people, with little impulse control to explode. There are even those I’ve run into who really enjoy their rage. Just be at a table with a poor loser,(a very good way to judge a date) in a casino. You quickly see what people are beneath a mask.

spam deleted - p

would this be considered getting spammed?

Well, I typically just sit back and peruse submissions to consider things that I might not have considered in planning for my family. This thread (potential violence) caught my attention and I wanted to share my life’s experiences as most here seem fairly concerned regarding potential outcomes.

Public disorder, panic, violence, etc….can and has occurred previously under similar conditions throughout man’s history. Unfortunately, it will again………

As another author mentioned above….”On the other end of the spectrum is something with the impact of the Black death. You have to choose the level you anticipate seeing, at the worst, and prepare accordingly.”

Yes you do. Choose what risk level you’re comfortable with and act accordingly.

BTW…to establish my bonafides…the life experiences I mention above were accrued through 20 years of Special Forces service in countries such as Bosnia, Croatia, Iraq, etc. Seen it before and won’t be suprised if it happens again..Not saying you need to go “Mad Max”….just determine what risk level you feel comfortable with…and act on it.

Cheers

Sounds like good advice :)

Well, from a life-long city slicker….no elk to hunt here, more neighbors than I care to have, most good, few dirtballs as can be expected. Lucky though to have well water, which can continue to run with our generator. Can grow food, have about 1/2 acre lot, know how to can, make bread and how to just get by in life. Will order one of those solar ovens, they look pretty cool and will try indoor gardening soon. I think those of us with even the most marginal “survival skills” can do just fine, with an open mind and willingness to try new things.

I was reading about how some of you are planning to protect yourself. My husband has hand guns and rifles, being a farm boy and an advid hunter, he knows how to use them. He has always said for protection use a shotgun. If someone was breaking into your house and you had a hand gun you would have to have to aim and if you didn’t kill them they could easily take the gun from you and kill you with it. You don’t have to be accurate with a shotgun…just point and pull the trigger. You will have a better chance to hit what you are shooting at.

My point again… Be careful what you say and to whom you say it. If you are going around trying to “educate the masses” and get them to prepare when they just look and you like you are crazy or they would rather roll their eye in denial, then you are potentially putting yourself at risk because when the pandemic breaks out, they will know you are stocked up and ready and you or your stuff will be someones target. My only advice is to prepare quietly, if anyone else is intelligent and like minded and has educated theirselves and is preparing, then I will be glad to befriend them, but otherwise, I just quietly go about my daily life preparing for the worst and hoping for the best. Good luck and you are at the best place to find information.

To Angel

A 12 gauge shot gun with buck shot. YOU WONT MISS AND THEY WONT GET UP!

They’de be picking beebee pellets out with tweezers.I remember a dog who had one just above her eye, like a exoctic jewel. One minute it was there and the next it had popped out.

There was an incident in the town where I live last week. An older couple was awoken early in the morning by the sound of breaking glass. 2 young persons, one armed with a baseball bat had entered their residence. The man grabbed a pistol from his beadstand. He went out to find out what was going on. One of the intruders said “Hit him Hit him!!” Then “He’s got a gun!”. Then “What are you doing in MY HOUSE??!!” Then bang. A small blood trail and the 2 intruders had rapidly departed. I live in a very small community near the large community where this occured. We are basically meth central here. A LOT of home invasion type burglaries lately. The guy said he hesitated for a split second but basically the thought of protecting his wife gave him the motivation to pull the trigger.

The fact of the matter is that anyone who would enter your home while you are there with a bat or some other weapon IS PREPARED to kill you to get property to sell to buy more meth or some other drug. Period. Be prepared to return the favor.

Post-Pandemic, It becomes more problematic when the intruder is after food to feed a starving family. But I guess there might not be time for the discussion “Are you after food or drugs?”. Best case there is a knock on the door and they will ask politely. They will get whatever I can spare.

Put yourself in the looter’s shoes. If i hadn’t stored any food, i would check everywhere i could for food, starting with my neighbor’s house, asking for food like we used to ask for butter when we ran out. but, eventually, with desperation fueling the hunger, i would stop at nothing to get into any house, even if there was a chance the flu had beat me there. there isnt much you can do to stop a person with that kind of determination short of physical harm.

should you begin to outfit your household as a fort, or lay low as long as possible? even laying low could cause problems. what happens during the winter when you light your fireplace? the smoke could be seen for a long ways, pinpointing your household. could that be a problem, or would that be a typical thing to be found during or after the pandemic?

“what happens during the winter when you light your fireplace? the smoke could be seen for a long ways, pinpointing your household. could that be a problem, or would that be a typical thing to be found during or after the pandemic?”

For those so inclined, pick up a copy of the 1962 Ray Milland movie called “Panic in Year Zero” about a suburban family living in the back country during the period of anarchy immediately after nuclear bombs destroy all the major cities of the world. There’s a scene in the movie with such cabin smoke, although in that case it was used to find the bad guys.

For some, the movie will feed a sense of foreboding; for others it might offer some useful tips. In any case, much of the discussion here keeps reminding me of that film.

Could we be getting just a little too paranoid???

Could be, but then again, maybe not. Within the last year Iran has exploded a warhead high in the atmosphere via its most advanced missle from a nondescript freighter. The only reason for such a test is to prep for producing an Electromagnetic Pulse Weapon which requires only the crudest of nukes, the simplest of missles (even a scud), and an old freighter that can creep up on our shores unnoticed among all of the others. Electromagnetic Pulse is created by every nuclear explosion, but is localized when the explosion is ground level. But with an explosion high in the atmosphere the Pulse spreads out in successive waves, frying all electronic devices and the electrical grid within line of sight. One such device exploded high above the central part of the United States would effectively send the whole country back to 19th century living for months, except we don’t know how to live that way and there are many more of us. Among the intelligence community this threat is high on the list of threats because it is easily doable (even by Al Queda if they obtain a nuke), hard to discern who the attacker was, and even if we do find that out with certainty, do we nuke Iran (or North Korea) in retaliation? And thereby, immediately kill their millions whereas our millions would die over months due to general disorder and inadequacy of supplies and infrastructure.

MAD, mutual assured destruction, is no longer controlling the nuclear beast. The above threat and the general craziness of our potential enemies have rendered MAD inoperable. The president of Iran for one thinks he is destined to usher in the Muslim version of the Apocalypse. The Mahdi will reappear with Christ by his side, (go figure).

So paranoia these days is a very relative term. And thinking beyond the flu, just lends a little more urgency to being prepared for the unthinkable.

My son is away at college in the country, and when I tell him he will need to come home if the BF becomes pandemic, he says no way will he come back INTO the city in a disaster. I can’t blame him because this year we have had so many murders already. However, I may be fooling myself, but I think that since most of the violence is drug-related, maybe a pandemic will be so new and scary it might stop business as usual, maybe even slow down the violence. Anyway that’s my reasoning to try to get him to come home.

I live in Florida between Tampa and Orlando. I don’t plan on staying here. I am going to north western minnesota. I am hoping that the cold will keep people away if H5N1 becomes a pandemic in the winter time. Spring is cold and rainy right to the end of May. Unforunately, that means prepping for a heat source myself. Thinking about gas stove and getting a larger propane tank. Waiting list on woodstoves is now 3 months. Too long

gimmie a break boneman

Ya go ahead go to minnesota.

People who are starving (along with their spouse/children) can be driven to desperate measures. For those who ask for help, I will have a Red Cross 3 day food bar. For those who are rampaging, I will call my local law enforcement. If they do not arrive in time (or at all), I will protect my family the best way possible. My neighborhood is setting up a Neighborhood Watch, and more than a couple are former military.

My viewpoint is right in line with “annoyed”. I think things are going to get ugly quick and there is not going to be anyone willing to try to restore order. Sure, communities will do what they can, but I can visualize everything from roving bands of armed bandits to VERY desperate neighbors. I’m not saying I wouldn’t share to keep a neighbor and his family alive, but that will only go so far. Let me just say that the legal complications of shooting somebody who is trying to kick down my door is the last thing I’m going to be thinking about and it won’t affect my aim one bit. Guns and ammunition have always been stocked in my house and were one thing I could check off the list right away when I started getting ready.

Thosw who doubt the potential for widespread violence as a result of disruption in supply need only review the history of the French Revolution. Seems the whole thing started when the King mismanaged the economy and the price of flour went so hig that no one could afford it. Since most French folk ate like 2 pounds of bread per day as their staple diet, that was the beginning of instant famine. Folks who looked like they were hoarding didn’t last very long in front of the angry mobs.

Object lesson from history.

And we were at fault indirectly, because the French expended a great deal of money, and their navel vessels helping us. Of course they were defending NO and their mississipi and Louisiana territory from the English, who were their enemy. We have paid them back in spades. but what happened in the years after the revolution was hideous and vicious. People turning on each other and paying back old wrongs. As usual the innocent suffered.I often wonder what role the 1918 flu played in the Russian Revolution.

“For those so inclined, pick up a copy of the 1962 Ray Milland movie called “Panic in Year Zero” about a suburban family living in the back country during the period of anarchy … In any case, much of the discussion here keeps reminding me of that film.”

Wow, am I glad you posted that, sn. I’ve been trying to remember the name of that movie for years. And I agree, many of these conversations remind me of it.

I have guns. I practise with them often. If need be, I’ll use them (key word is ‘need’). But there are WAY too many posts on flu forums about the likelihood of looting, violent, rampaging gangs and the need for lethal force, hair triggers and overwhelming firepower. We’re encouraging people who know nothing about firearms to shoot through the door at the first desperate beggar who pounds too hard. This is stupid. This is dangerous.

Part of the reason I own guns (and practise as often as I do) is so that I do NOT have to be so afraid. You don’t want to back me into a corner, but hey - I’d really rather give you some Saltines than kill you.

On the other hand, terrified, trigger happy ‘defenders’ with guns scare me just as much as ‘gangs of looters’. In fact, sometimes when I read these threads I am not at all sure who I should be more afraid of.

I think there are a lot of people on these forums giving ‘advice’ to frightened, novice gun owners, who have never actually seen what a gun can do to a human being. When you shoot someone, you cannot take it back.

…t

I do agree with most that this is an excellent forum. I guess I am not really prepared supply wise for the Bird Flu. I do believe that things will get quickly out of hand if the infrastructure of the local governments crumbles due to a rapid and wide range of sickness. You have to remember that there are people out there who just wait for an opportunity to rape and pillage, etc. The Bird Flu pendemic would give them the opportunity. The majority of people will not be prepared and things will deteriota rapidly. There will be wide spread looting and people with do whatever it takes to feed themselves and their families, even if this means killing their neighbors for the necessary supplies. I believe martial law will be declared within the first week as utilities such as electricity, water, etc will be out. I am going to start stocking up immediately on supplies such as water, canned goods, etc. I do have guns to include a Shotgun and a 9mm and will not hesitate to use them if anyone invades me or my families space. I am ex-military and am an expert shot on all weapons. I wish everybody good luck and health if the Bird Flu does arrive in the states. I do wish that all americans would band together, but as we all know this will not happen….New Orleans…If the federal government could not even handle a disaster in 1 state, how can we expect them to handle the 50 states…Any Comments….

As awful as the scene is that you describe, if a pandemic arrives within the year, I would have to agree with it.

Some points to ponder on waepons, what kind to have or whether even to have any… I believe EVERYONE should have some type of weapon. You may use it to fend off a drug-crazed burglar, a pack of starving dogs after a disaster, or whatever, but everyone needs SOMETHING unless they are willing to totally and completely turn the other cheek no matter what. You may think that you could never pull the trigger or swing a club at another being, but the sight of your child being mauled by a dog or your wife being raped may change your mind in a hurry. If you’ve not prepared, you won’t have an option except to stand by. Those who prefer things such as clubs, knives, etc over guns need to stop and think also, that getting up “close and personal” enough to inflict any damage with such weapons can be far more intimidating than standing back and blasting off a round from a shotgun. There is also a greater possibilty with such weapons that you will miss your target entirely or even have the weapon taken away and used against you. (Also, don’t bring a knife to a gunfight!) A gun gives you one important advantage, which is distance. Anyone who does decide to keep a gun as a weapon should make sure that they know how to handle it safely, that they get practice at the shooting range with using it, and that they put any children that may be in the home through an “Eddie Eagle” course offered by the NRA to teach kids gun safety (which is a good idea whether you have guns in your home or not). Just something to think about.

Another kidnapping at the point of a gun. This time a woman kidnapped a young man. Seemes like a drug incident, at a supermarket I occassionaly frequent. The rural areas are getting their share. We get runs on violent behavior. One year a gang out of Newark were carjacking right and left, until the police put a stop to it. Now it break ins.